Is the Holy Spirit drawing you to dive deeper into the sacramental tapestry? Does the Eucharist seemingly have a more central place in your worship? Might the Holy Spirit be at work beyond tongues?
Jul 27, 2023·edited Jul 29, 2023Liked by The Sacramental Charismatic
This is helpful. Having been ordained Anglican and drifting into the Vineyard in the early 2000's I've never struggled with holding the ancient paths and the charismata together. The ancient paths (Eucharisto et al) are what anchor us. Years ago I read Richard Foster's 'Six Streams', which makes the same claims as the article. We are not meant to be 'contemplative, or charismatic, or social justice, or evangelical or...' we are meant to be all of those things. When I left Vineyard in South Africa in 2014, I don't think we had fully embraced this, although Alexander Venter certainly always held a torch for the contemplative tradition and Costa Mitchel had started leading a group of us in Lectio. Coming into AVC Canada there is no doubt that we are far more 'sacramentally' charismatic (great term and concept, I've adopted it thanks) than I was accustomed to previously. Keep up the good work. There are many poles now, apart from the charismata, that require us to hold some form of tension. Vineyard as a generally 'centrist' type of movement has much to offer in these times. We might not be flavour of the month any longer, but God will fulfil his purposes in and through us if we recognise our lane and occupy it faithfully.
First of all, why are we not best friends? ha ha ha!
Man... those are such great thoughts!!! I have been asking the following question for nearly twenty years: "Will the center hold?" And by "center," I have always meant "Kingdom theology." I think the only way there's any "holding of the tension" is by thickening ourselves toward this "five streams" work that Foster and many others have nudged us toward.
It's interesting with Foster because his life work and those he influenced the most seem to have really just ran with the contemplative stream more than others and I wonder what it would look like to run with all five and do one's best to keep that very tension.
But wow... South Africa... to Canada... that sounds like an incredible story!
Hi, Luke, you may be familiar with St. Patrick who lived in the 400’s, the closing days of the early church. If you read his autobiography (yes, we have his actual writings) you will see he is a combination of the sacramental, evangelical (lots of scripture quotes you would see coming from a conservative Baptist) and charismatic activities - he even describes an encounter with the Holy Spirit that can be seen as him speaking in tongues. Here is his autobiography, not too long https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/pat-confession.asp
I think our individual focus should be strengthening the core essential - what you would have available in solitary confinement with no Bible, fellowship or access to sacraments - which are useful to point to that essential - which is being filled with the Spirit, clothed with Christ, Galatians 3:26-27, sons of God knowing the love and presence of the Father as Jesus did, knowing the love and presence of the Father I think is the essence of being filled with the Spirit, available as a flowing well John 4:14, John 17:2-3,26; Romans 5:5, 8:14-16, all as pure gift.
Simple need is the entrance fee, for God gives grace to the humble, we become like the woman with the issue of blood who knows just go to Jesus and he will give the Spirit and reveal the Father. Then we have the inestimable privilege of praying to and being with the Father who is always there in secret. We resist simplicity, “my people have committed two sins, they have forsaken me , the spring of living water, and have their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water” Jeremiah 2:13, Jesus said, “It is the Spirit that gives life”
It has been my experience that relying on sacraments, contemplative methods, seeking various manifestations of the Spirit, corporate worship and even Bible immersion can be broken cisterns. “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God” Again the essential I think, is what we would have and be alone in solitary confinement.
I'm not sure there's a need to overlook or ignore the various streams simply because one may end up in solitary confinement though... especially given how much Scripture points us to lean into these areas. For my part, I'd be more interested in encouraging people to "thicken" these habits and rhythms in order to avoid them being "broken cisterns," which can certainly be a problem when left shallow (like pretty much any "spiritual" thing... even the idea of "intimacy").
This is helpful. Having been ordained Anglican and drifting into the Vineyard in the early 2000's I've never struggled with holding the ancient paths and the charismata together. The ancient paths (Eucharisto et al) are what anchor us. Years ago I read Richard Foster's 'Six Streams', which makes the same claims as the article. We are not meant to be 'contemplative, or charismatic, or social justice, or evangelical or...' we are meant to be all of those things. When I left Vineyard in South Africa in 2014, I don't think we had fully embraced this, although Alexander Venter certainly always held a torch for the contemplative tradition and Costa Mitchel had started leading a group of us in Lectio. Coming into AVC Canada there is no doubt that we are far more 'sacramentally' charismatic (great term and concept, I've adopted it thanks) than I was accustomed to previously. Keep up the good work. There are many poles now, apart from the charismata, that require us to hold some form of tension. Vineyard as a generally 'centrist' type of movement has much to offer in these times. We might not be flavour of the month any longer, but God will fulfil his purposes in and through us if we recognise our lane and occupy it faithfully.
First of all, why are we not best friends? ha ha ha!
Man... those are such great thoughts!!! I have been asking the following question for nearly twenty years: "Will the center hold?" And by "center," I have always meant "Kingdom theology." I think the only way there's any "holding of the tension" is by thickening ourselves toward this "five streams" work that Foster and many others have nudged us toward.
It's interesting with Foster because his life work and those he influenced the most seem to have really just ran with the contemplative stream more than others and I wonder what it would look like to run with all five and do one's best to keep that very tension.
But wow... South Africa... to Canada... that sounds like an incredible story!
Let's link properly. Melt@ykvineyard.com
Hi, Luke, you may be familiar with St. Patrick who lived in the 400’s, the closing days of the early church. If you read his autobiography (yes, we have his actual writings) you will see he is a combination of the sacramental, evangelical (lots of scripture quotes you would see coming from a conservative Baptist) and charismatic activities - he even describes an encounter with the Holy Spirit that can be seen as him speaking in tongues. Here is his autobiography, not too long https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/pat-confession.asp
I think our individual focus should be strengthening the core essential - what you would have available in solitary confinement with no Bible, fellowship or access to sacraments - which are useful to point to that essential - which is being filled with the Spirit, clothed with Christ, Galatians 3:26-27, sons of God knowing the love and presence of the Father as Jesus did, knowing the love and presence of the Father I think is the essence of being filled with the Spirit, available as a flowing well John 4:14, John 17:2-3,26; Romans 5:5, 8:14-16, all as pure gift.
Simple need is the entrance fee, for God gives grace to the humble, we become like the woman with the issue of blood who knows just go to Jesus and he will give the Spirit and reveal the Father. Then we have the inestimable privilege of praying to and being with the Father who is always there in secret. We resist simplicity, “my people have committed two sins, they have forsaken me , the spring of living water, and have their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water” Jeremiah 2:13, Jesus said, “It is the Spirit that gives life”
It has been my experience that relying on sacraments, contemplative methods, seeking various manifestations of the Spirit, corporate worship and even Bible immersion can be broken cisterns. “Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God” Again the essential I think, is what we would have and be alone in solitary confinement.
I do love me some St. Patrick...
I'm not sure there's a need to overlook or ignore the various streams simply because one may end up in solitary confinement though... especially given how much Scripture points us to lean into these areas. For my part, I'd be more interested in encouraging people to "thicken" these habits and rhythms in order to avoid them being "broken cisterns," which can certainly be a problem when left shallow (like pretty much any "spiritual" thing... even the idea of "intimacy").